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Dec 13, 2017 21:21:29 GMT
Post by Ruinus on Dec 13, 2017 21:21:29 GMT
I'm not denying that over the entire comic book history of Superman he's never killed anyone - ditto Batman - but the filmmakers had a choice of what representation of the characters they wanted to portray. I've heard the argument (re: the neck snap) that Superman had no choice - that he was in a situation where he was forced to do something he didn't want to - but this is ridiculous. He's only in that no-choice situation because the writer PUT HIM THERE. That was a choice by the writer to show Supes snapping a guy's neck to save some random people. He didn't have to put him in that situation, and he could have easily written in a last minute out but he didn't. That was the characterization of Superman he wanted to show. That's two different things though. One is looking at the writing as is (Clark is in this situation, what does he do?) the other is looking at the way the writer did this (Why did the writer put these characters in these situations)? When people like me, defend Clark's choice to kill we aren't talking about what the writer should have done, we're looking at what has happened in the story and in the character up to that point. You and other people who have an issue with that scene aren't talking about the character, you're talking about what the writer should have done. There is no moral dilemma in that scene, because Clark has no established "no kill rule". So you acknowledge that this argument is a strawman? You are right, nowhere in the movie does it ever say this Clark Kent won't kill people. So complaining about this Clark Kent breaking a moral code he has never mentioned is absurd. You mean aside from confronting the World Engine and nearly dying to prevent the death of the very society that views him with distrust and suspicion? Also, I think here you are comparing this Clark Kent to several other iterations of Superman. This Clark doesn't know how to fight, whereas all his opponents are trained fighters. Throughout most of the fight he's barely holding his own. Even if he wanted to prevent mass destruction and death, which I'm sure he does, there's really nothing he could do to prevent that when he's being beaten to shit by Faora, Namek and Zod. Except it's not a fundamental aspect of his character. This Clark has never, even once, mentioned anything about "no killing". Neither has any of the other Superman. He is reluctant to, sure. But comic Superman has shown that he will kill people if there is absolutely no other choice - hell, was going to kill one of his friends while she was possessed by an alien. Which would have been impossible at that point, because there is no way to restrain Zod. And, if your retort to this is "Well the writer should have made another way to solve the issue", then we are no longer discussing the actual movie as it is, rather a hypothetical version of the movie. A principle that he never held. What is happening in the kill scene isn't about Clark betraying some moral principle that has never been hinted at in the movie and only comes from the minds of fans of the comic randomly assigning to him (despite all evidence to the contrary), but Clark sticking to his moral code despite the fact that it has now alienated him from both Earth and Krypton. That struggle is prevalent in the entire movie, but there are several key moments that bring it up - one of them being the nightmare vision Clark has while aboard the Kryptonian scout ship where Zod makes his demand to hand over the Codex to build a new Krypton on the grave of Earth. There, Clark claims that "I can't be a part of this" and Zod's response is "Then what can you be a part of?" Clark wants to fit into Earth, but at this point they view him with suspicion and distrust - as an alien. When Krypton appears, Clark finds it morally reprehensible. Krypton is as alien to him as it is to humans. When Zod proclaims that "either you die, or I do" and that he'll "never" stop trying to destroy Earth, Clark destroys the only living link to his homeworld. Whereas Clark previously felt alienated by things outside of his control (his Kryptonian biology), here he makes himself an alien by his own hand.
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Dec 13, 2017 22:52:57 GMT
Post by silversurfer092 on Dec 13, 2017 22:52:57 GMT
So I've thought about this. You've defended your points well enough and I was thinking and thinking and thinking and then I realized I just don't give a shit. That right there is a big problem. You talk about how Soberguy is talking about what the writer SHOULD have done, the Superman he should have gone with. I'm okay with the writers choosing a different iteration of Superman. I'm okay with a Superman that kills. I just finished reading Kingdom Come, Injustice, and Flashpoint. I've gotten through 3 of the most critically acclaimed comics that have totally different depictions of these characters. So I'm okay with Superman killing. The problem is Snyder is going into these movies, assuming that we already give a shit about these characters. "It's Superman, all of those fanboys will love him so we don't have to worry about character building." And they didn't. Even in the trailers for MoS, I had a weird feeling that Pa Kent was kind of a fucking dick. Watching MoS for the first time confirmed it. His teachings basically amounted to "Clark, don't use your powers. People will know you're an alien, don't do it". Jonathan Kent telling Clark to not be Superman? What in the fuck? Continuing on, I never found a reason to care about Superman. He wasn't empathetic, the story and the plotlines through both movies just never had me think "Oh man, I care about what happens". We're supposed to learn about who Batman is through dialogue about his past and a few images here and there, but man. They missed the mark. Batman talks about "how many people stay good in Gotham?" yet he's an executioner? I'm supposed to gather that Batman is some old tortured soul with a past because of that line and a picture of an old Robin costume? An even worse problem about that is that SHOULD actually be enough to depict a Batman we could care for. We learned John Wick was a fucking demon just through hearing a dude say "Oh" with the fear of God in his voice.
Man, I was so excited for MoS. I love Superman Year One and the quote they took from All-Star Superman. I love the character Superman. And they fucked it all up by giving me some cardboard character who, like Soberguy said, all of a sudden had great moral problems letting Zod kill a single family after literally destroying their entire city. I get why they did it, that was a big premise of why Batman hated Superman. And like I said before, the writers could have gone somewhere awesome with Superman killing. Give him emotional scarring, make the viewers understand that Superman didn't walk away the same person. Make Superman come to terms with what he did and show us. But he did not. All he did was say one line to Lois and then move on with his life. Nowhere in BvS did I think Superman had to face any repercussion for killing Zod. Even when he said whatever line you said he did about killing the last of his people. I felt no empathy for him. I didn't feel sad that he was all alone. I just could not give a shit. That's on the writers for giving us shit characters.
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Dec 14, 2017 14:38:09 GMT
Post by soberguy on Dec 14, 2017 14:38:09 GMT
I don't disagree with you that the neck snap wasn't entirely inconsistent with Clark's character up to that point, given that he hasn't established a no-kill rule. What I'm saying is that this character is fundamentally different than how 95% of the planet envisions Superman and (and further to Surfer's post) I don't care about him at all. Like AT ALL. This is really what I'm getting at with what the writer SHOULD have done. They chose to give us a Superman who doesn't feel like Superman. A Clark Kent that doesn't feel like Clark Kent. A Jonathan Kent who doesn't feel like Jonathan Kent. A Jimmy Olsen who randomly gets shot in the head and no one really realized was Jimmy Olsen. All that would have been fine if these characters were at least likable or interesting but none of them were.
It's only made more absurd by Justice League, where Superman shows up and is suddenly acting like Superman. Everyone is all like "Yep that's Superman all right - acting just like he always has! Saving a building full of civilians? Classic Supes, amirite??" and then whistling suspiciously and averting eye contact.
At the end of the day, the main point here is that (Wonder Woman aside) these DCEU have been terrible, forgettable movies. You were describing Superman's fight with Faora and Namek in your last post and I realized I had totally forgot that they were in the movie. I mean honestly, I think my brain just sort of shut off during the second act.
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Dec 14, 2017 21:35:42 GMT
Post by silversurfer092 on Dec 14, 2017 21:35:42 GMT
Superman, in that one final battle scene in JL, stole the show for me. Because that's the Superman that I love. He's beating the shit out of someone, because duh it's Superman, and then he's like "hold on, gotta go save people". That's Superman. It's one of the reasons I liked Superman Returns. I don't need to see Superman beat the shit out of someone because we know how that's ending. Being forced to make a decision that will inevitably kill him or kill a shitton of other people? That's that shit I do like.
EDIT: While I absolutely hate the writers for the DCEU (just assume Wonder Woman is exempt from all of my complaints), I think that Henry Cavill is a godawful actor and Superman as well. The writers wrote a cardboard character and Henry Cavill took it to heart and acted like a cardboard character.
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Dec 14, 2017 22:04:15 GMT
Post by soberguy on Dec 14, 2017 22:04:15 GMT
Look, can we all at least agree that Black Panther is going to be amazing? #CommonGround #WorldPeace
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Dec 14, 2017 23:46:03 GMT
Post by silversurfer092 on Dec 14, 2017 23:46:03 GMT
I am so psyched for that movie. It's going to be excellent.
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Dec 16, 2017 2:05:13 GMT
Post by bigballerju on Dec 16, 2017 2:05:13 GMT
Yup Black Panther looks great. Oh I saw Disaster Artist last night with a friend. Fucking great movie. One of Franco's best performances. Funny as hell. Go see it. Now as far Last Jedi... Wow there is a huge difference with Critics and Audience. I didn't see this one coming. The prequels audience rating was higher then that Last Jedi. Its still Friday so I can't wait to see if at the end of the weekend if the Audience Score goes up. I can't wait to see the movie and judge for myself. www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/
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Dec 18, 2017 14:30:16 GMT
Post by soberguy on Dec 18, 2017 14:30:16 GMT
Yup Black Panther looks great. Oh I saw Disaster Artist last night with a friend. Fucking great movie. One of Franco's best performances. Funny as hell. Go see it. Now as far Last Jedi... Wow there is a huge difference with Critics and Audience. I didn't see this one coming. The prequels audience rating was higher then that Last Jedi. Its still Friday so I can't wait to see if at the end of the weekend if the Audience Score goes up. I can't wait to see the movie and judge for myself. www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/The Last Jedi was meh. I can't say more without spoilers.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:31:59 GMT
Post by soberguy on Dec 18, 2017 14:31:59 GMT
Also, the disparity between audience and critical ratings is commonplace at RT. IT'S ALMOST LIKE SOME GIANT CORPORATION WITH BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THE LINE WERE SOMEHOW INFLUENCING CRITICS OPINIONS BUT NAH THAT'S CRAZY RIGHT?
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Dec 18, 2017 17:39:00 GMT
Post by bigballerju on Dec 18, 2017 17:39:00 GMT
Yea true regarding RT. A very good friend of mine who just casual likes Star Wars but isn't a die hard fan or anything loved the film. He said its one of the best. So definitely one film when I see it with friends I can't wait to see if I like it or not.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:41:42 GMT
Post by silversurfer092 on Dec 19, 2017 21:41:42 GMT
I liked it. Didn't super love it, but definitely didn't hate it.
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Dec 23, 2017 3:56:05 GMT
Post by bigballerju on Dec 23, 2017 3:56:05 GMT
The first half of Last Jedi was good. The second half was bad. 5 or 6 out of 10 rating. Shame on Disney. WOW...
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Apr 14, 2018 4:41:52 GMT
Post by Ruinus on Apr 14, 2018 4:41:52 GMT
Rampage is much better than I'd thought it'd be. In fact, the opening scene itself made me wonder if the theater had made a mistake and started rolling a better movie instead.
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Apr 18, 2018 17:22:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by ConfessionFPT on Apr 18, 2018 17:22:10 GMT
Rampage is much better than I'd thought it'd be. In fact, the opening scene itself made me wonder if the theater had made a mistake and started rolling a better movie instead. Yeh, Rampage was dope.
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Apr 18, 2018 21:10:15 GMT
Post by silversurfer092 on Apr 18, 2018 21:10:15 GMT
Bet it's not as good as A Quiet Place though.
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