Movies

Yes they did. The feeling of alienation and fear of society he had in Man of Steel is still present in Batman v Superman and resolved in Justice League. All three movies are an examination of Clark's character, fears and motivation. Arguably, Justice League is the only Superman movie, with Man of Steel and Batman v Superman being Clark Kent movies.



Snyder's ability to tell is equal to Whedon's, who revealed character motivation through magical plot device (Aquaman and Wonder Woman lasso scene).



And then the movie promptly drops the topic of mankind's inherent ability to commit great atrocities in favor of a battle between two gods, one of which was shown to have whispered the secrets of weapons into character's minds throughout the film.



Seriously? Some of them, by your own admission, are flat out told to us. But ok.

MoS:
Heroism at Personal Cost - What Jonathan Kent feared would happen to Clark Kent. The movie is not subtle about connecting Clark to a Jesus Messiah figure, both figures whose inherent drive to help mankind either does end up coming at great personal expense or further alienates them from the very society they are attempting to aid.

Alienation - Clark knows that he is different from the rest of the world. Eventually, he learns that he is from an extinct race whose sole surviving members are so morally different from him that the only possible interaction between him and them is through violence. In effect, Clark is physiologically similar to the Kryptonians, but culturally and morally human. This is on continued throughout all the movies featuring Superman.

Ethics v Morality - Kryptonian society seems to be devoid of morals, instead the Codex inscribes individuals with ethic guidelines. Clark is the first Kryptonian in centuries (or whatever the exact line is) to be born free of the Codex. Hence, he develops a set of morals apart from the Kryptonian ethics - which is what causes him to reject the Kryptonian plans to subjugate the Earth/wipe out mankind. They are running on their built in set of ethics that prioritize Kryptonian military castes over humans.

BvS:
Fear - Batman's (and presumably lots of other people's) fear of Superman stems from the fantastic disparity of power that exists between Kryptonians and humans. As Bruce flat out states, Superman has the power to wipe out all life on Earth and in the face of such an existential threat, mankind should do everything in their power to ensure that Superman be removed as a threat. This is also how Lex Luthor attempts to sell Kryptonite weaponry to the US government. An old sci-fi book explores this idea, The Killing Star.

Rule of Law - Superman faces intense criticism from the public - usually out of pure xenophobia. But government officials have a much different fear and concerns. Superman is "an individual engaging in these state-level interventions." Simply put, modern laws are not equipped to handle an individual with Superman's capabilities. Take for example the scene where he saves a Russian rocket launch - presumably he has violated Russian airspace (and however many countries he flew over to reach that place) and is on Russian property without permission. Because he cooperated with US Armed Forces, arguments could be made that he is a US agent of some sort. While you derided the "Superman is American" idea running throughout the film, it is brought up in the film. The US Government seems to want some oversight on when and where he can act.

Vigilantism - Clark and Bruce are both vigilantes, yet the movie demonizes one and celebrates the other. This carries the implication that some forms of vigilantism are acceptable - such as Clark saving flood and fire victims, intervening in failed rocket launches, removing wrecks from the Arctic Circle, while Batman's vigilantism - branding of criminals with "death sentences" is an abhorrent abuse of power.

Ethics v Morality - Like the last movie. Clark is acting based off of his own moral code which is at odds with human ethics.


Appeals to popularity are irrelevant. In a strictly financial sense (what would make DC more money and guarantee a stable film franchise) I might agree, but that's not the issue I was originally talking about.


Ok. That has no bearing on the movies though.

Which is why I said:
"In a strictly financial sense (what would make DC more money and guarantee a stable film franchise) I might agree, but that's not the issue I was originally talking about."



Evidently I don't, since I was just the one who wrote about the underlying themes of all three Superman movies. Hell, evidently Snyder doesn't either, since he bothered to make all three of his films follow through on character arcs.



If you missed the issues of alienation, vigilantism, rule of law, conflicts between ethics and morality, consolidation of power, than that's not my fault. Nor is it the movie's fault, because some of those topics and allegories were incredibly blatant (hell, some of the examples I gave are explicitly talked about in the movies themselves).



I didn't miss that, in fact my entire argument has been that the movie stops examining that issue when Ares' fight scenes start. And JL even comments on the fact that Wonder Woman sat on her ass and did nothing for a few decades - so all her character motivation seems to have petered out sometime after WWI. Now, to the movie's credit it is entirely possible that Wonder Woman 2 will fill in her character arc, bridging the gap between the first movie and JL. If it does, then I'd enjoy the first movie more, knowing that there is an actual payoff for the issues it raises. But at the moment there's a gap between WW and JL.

So do you also hate Grant Morrison for actually having Talia al Ghul rape Batman through drugs and conceive a child with him?

Though, it doesn't matter. Your personal fanboy hate boner against Snyder is not my concern, nor relevant to my enjoyment and interpretation of his movies.

"Tell me the themes in MoS and BvS. Honestly, just tell me A SINGLE THEME that was taken from start to finish in either movies, outside of "Superman is American". I don't think MoS or BvS are supposed to be deep films, so I don't actually care about themes. I care to be entertained. They were not entertaining. They were poorly written in every way: plot, dialogue, pacing, everything."

I find your ability to follow character arcs and overarching themes suspect.

But fine. Batman doesn't have a "redemption" arc at all. Rather, much like the concept of alienation running through Clark's character arc, Batman's character also deals with alienation. Batman v Superman sets this up with no dialogue at all - after Bruce's parents are killed, we see Bruce walking along with the funeral procession to the lone sepulcher of the Wayne family. Bruce breaks away from that group of mourners and runs off to be alone, afterwards he falls into the cave system beneath his family home and is embraced by a flight of bats. None of this relied on dialogue.

One scene in particular shows this too - when Bruce stops in front of Robin's costume with Joker's taunting message tagged all over it. Hence, not only was Bruce Wayne's family violently taken away from him by the dregs of Gotham, but Batman's family was violently taken away from him by the dregs of Gotham. Hell, about the only family Bruce has left is Alfred, whom he often disregards.

As he is about to kill Clark, there is both dialogue (telling) and implication (showing). Both because Clark has a mother named Martha, but also because Bruce realizes that Clark has a family - that, unlike himself, he has some connection to humanity and the world around him. Not only that, but unlike Bruce who seems to be a distant recluse occasionally going on dates/office meetings, Clark has a lover. Not just any lover either, but one committed enough to arrive into the scene of a battle to shield him against a man with heavy weaponry and power armor. This is mentioned in Justice League, where Bruce admits that Clark is "more human than him". Because he realizes that Clark, who is not human and has to hide a fundamental part of himself, was able to have a family.

BTW, the Wayne Family manor is a great symbolic representation of Bruce's completely lack of family and home. Notice that he only begins to refurnish it during Justice League.

What you are doing is deriding the moments that are explicitly referencing these underlying issues and claiming that Snyder is a shit director because he can only tell and not show. Except he can and he did. You just missed them.

Yes you did. You absolutely did.
"The fact that I've seen MoS and BvS three times each and still need someone else to spell out the themes goes to show how shitty the movies are at expressing them"

I like how you attempt to claim that the only possible explanation for you forgetting those themes is a failure on the part of the movie. Here's an alternative explanation. It's entirely a failure on your part.

The examples I gave have moments where they are explicitly brought to the forefront, but they are present throughout all films even when they aren't being verbally discussed.

Grant Morrison did a storyline where Talia rapes Batman through drugs and conceives a child with him. Even if he didn't, your one-dimensional interpretation of Zack Snyder's words is not the sole interpretation.

"It did on my world. That world doesn't exist anymore."

That's because that scene isn't about Superman killing someone, it's about Superman, by his own hand, destroying the only other person in the universe who comes from Krypton. He feels alone, a feeling he'd been battling since Man of Steel and seemingly resolves in Justice League. Frankly, there is alot more going on in the scene in which Clark kills Zod than simply the act of killing.

Well, I disagree. I deleted your post for unnecessary flaming.

Both Batman and Superman have killed people in comics. You are right, Superman hasn't snapped any necks, but he has shoved his hand through the Joker's heart, ripped apart people via dimensional shenanigans, thrown two people into the Big Bang, executed some Kryptonians with green kryptonite, crushed Zod's hand (Superman II) and Brainiac (Smallville). Batman's first appearance has him knocking some guy into a giant vat of acid, and he's used people as human shields.

Either way, Superman wasn't the one who destroyed Metropolis. Arguably Man of Steel isn't even a Superman movie either, it's a Clark Kent movie.

Yeah, but the scale of the reset from Flashpoint can either be really big or really small. Right now, it'll probably be really big. As of right now, Batfleck might be over already.

It's also been said that Ben Affleck doesn't want Ben Affleck as Batman in the solo films. The critics have broken him. After years of being in absolutely hated movies, he couldn't survive another onslaught on the level of BvS.