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Post by supes on Sept 30, 2013 22:53:56 GMT
During my time at the CBUB as Supes Rulez writing matches or posting topics I never quite got around to a topic I'm very puzzled by. The age-old argument of Cole MacGrath from inFAMOUS vs Alex Mercer from PROTOTYPE.   The general consensus seemed that Cole would get his butt whooped by Alex if it came to a fight between the two, but around the time inFAMOUS 2 came out I was surprised by how many people had moved on. And after playing inFAMOUS 2 I have to say that Cole would actually win. Now hear me out, I am referring to fully upgraded Cole by the time he activates the RFI or becomes the Beast. In the first game he would probably get thrashed. But by the end if his story, Cole in my opinion has the advantage over Alex in a few key aspects. 1: Range- As cool as Alex's whipfist power is, he seems to rely on hijacking vehicles or weapons when it comes to long-range attacks. Cole on the other had fires friggin' lightning out of his hands. If he were at a safe distance he could sufficiently stun Alex with a lightning bolt to the head and follow up with any manner of attacks. Remember that Alex seemed winded by an electrified weapon used by Cross. Imagine what a full on lightning bolt to his skull would do. And as long as Cole keeps his distance and used his powers wisely, he could wear Mercer down.  Couldn't find an image of a particularly long range, one, this one will have to do.2: Versatility- By the time you either activate the RFI or gain the Beast's powers, Cole has a LOT of powers to choose from. Alex's abilities are versatile as well, but they all require biomass/extensions of his own body. Cole's various abilities whether they be Ionic, fire, or ice don't require him to shed any of his own biomass. And Cole's radar pulse would take away Alex's key advantage: the element of surprise. If in battle against Cole, Alex could shapeshift but Cole would sense the incoming threat and react accordingly. Also taking into account the Ionic drain he could take a lot of Alex's strength/biomass, or freeze him and then blow him to pieces. And if Alex is worn sufficiently (I'm talking about the state he was by the end of his fight with Heller) even the Amp could be useful.  Cole can consume too.3: Destructive Power- Let's be honest. The whole ' regenerated from a nuke' argument is overused. Alex was only able to do so because a crow conveniently landed by where his gooey remains resided, allowing him to consume it. He got lucky. I doubt that if Cole reduced Alex to pieces or goo that he would allow that to happen. And he could. From rockets, to shock grenades, to the friggin' Ionic storm Cole has immense destructive power at his desposal. Lightning can reach temperatures of 53,540 DEGREES. That's hotter than the surface of the sun. Hitting Alex with that is not just blowing Alex into bloody chunks like bullets or artillery, that's incinerating him. Imagine Cole sending an Ionic vortex to Alex, getting him torn up and electrocuted. Then Cole could freeze Alex before he could recover, following up with bolts of lightning from the sky. Provided there are no crows that luckily happen to be nearby, Alex is doomed. Heck, the only reason you don't see Cole doing that to anybody is because the inFAMOUS games are rated T   Look at that monster he's hitting with the storm!In conclusion, I really do think that by the end of inFAMOUS 2, Cole has too many abilities for Alex to keep up with, and possesses too much potential for destruction. Could Alex still find a way to win? Probably. Would it be a curbstomp either way? Of course not. Does beating somebody actually require that you kill them? No, and I doubt Alex would stay dead for long unless he was reduced to ashes or consumed (looking at you, Heller). But more often than not, Cole would most likely win.  As long as he doesn't charge in like here. Idiot... |
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Post by bigballerju on Oct 1, 2013 0:52:45 GMT
Hmm interesting reasons. I will think about this and then state which side I support.
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Post by Indolent on Oct 1, 2013 3:33:52 GMT
I don't recall the general consensus being that Alex would whup Cole's but since Cole can pretty much destroy him in a sustained fight - thought of course, if Mercer manages to get in close, Cole's dead.
But yeah
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Post by kainboa on Oct 1, 2013 17:51:35 GMT
I'll preface this by saying that I haven't played Infamous or Infamous 2, so this is purely a response to the claims in this post.
If he were at a safe distance he could sufficiently stun Alex with a lightning bolt to the head and follow up with any manner of attacks.
This is true, of course he would have to hit Alex while dodging vehicles and various other objects that Alex would be throwing at him, while Alex is also moving around.
It is entirely possible that he would be able to hit Alex at range, but it is quite a bit more difficult than you make it seem.
Let's be honest. The whole 'regenerated from a nuke' argument is overused. Alex was only able to do so because a crow conveniently landed by where his gooey remains resided, allowing him to consume it. He got lucky.
While it is true that Alex got lucky, there was no signs of his biomass deteriorating any further, and the remaining body mass was, to a certain degree, mobile, as we saw when it created a miniature tentacle to grab the crow.
This means that eventually the biomass would have encountered another living being, either because somebody wandered along the beach where it landed or because it would have moved itself into the city, allowing it to consume more mass and restoring itself.
What this means, is that the only way to actually kill Alex, is to either assimilate him, like Heller did, or to completely destroy him at a molecular level, since if there is anything left, it'll recreate itself given time.
On top of this, since Alex is basically a virus in human form, if he manages to hit Cole, he's got a chance to infect him.
Of course, since I don't really know anything about Cole, it is entirely possible that he's got some kind of power that would allow him to combat a viral infection.
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supes
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Post by supes on Oct 1, 2013 21:31:10 GMT
Alrighty. There actually is a power Cole could use to make sure Alex wouldn't dodge at long range, it's the Precision ability. Basically time 'slows down' as Cole aims, probably due to his senses being stimulated meaning that Alex wouldn't be able to dodge. As for Alex's biomass grabbing the Crow, it was a pretty feeble effort and was hit or miss. Fortunately for Alex, it was a hit. However, as I stated I doubt Cole would give Alex that chance. Freezing the remains could do the trick. Cole doesn't have specific power meant to overcome viral infection, but consuming somebody isn't instantaneous. Cole would have a chance to fire a rocket point blank into Alex's face or dislodge him with the Amp. Alex would have to make it fast if he wanted to consume Cole. |
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Post by kainboa on Oct 1, 2013 23:08:40 GMT
Alrighty. There actually is a power Cole could use to make sure Alex wouldn't dodge at long range, it's the Precision ability. Basically time 'slows down' as Cole aims, probably due to his senses being stimulated meaning that Alex wouldn't be able to dodge.Since I don't know anything about the game, I'll have to rely on you and others here to elaborate. Does Cole use this power in a cut-scene, to hit somebody who's moving faster than a speeding car? If he simply uses it in-game, that could be explained as game mechanics, just like any other "auto-aim" mechanic in various games. As for Alex's biomass grabbing the Crow, it was a pretty feeble effort and was hit or miss. Fortunately for Alex, it was a hit.If you take a look at this video, you can see that there are several strands of his biomass already moving, one of them latches on to the crow, and the rest as they say, is history. This shows that it is not hit and miss, regardless of how you would like it to be so. Cole doesn't have specific power meant to overcome viral infection, but consuming somebody isn't instantaneous.And I never said anything about Alex consuming Cole, I said infect something rather different. This is shown in Prototype 2, where Alex has infected several different people, gaining a measure of control over them, without consuming them. Cole would have a chance to fire a rocket point blank into Alex's face or dislodge him with the Amp.Considering that the only thing it would take, would be a single hit, unless Cole is capable of completely avoiding being struck, chances are he'll get infected.
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supes
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Post by supes on Oct 2, 2013 0:52:34 GMT
Since I don't know anything about the game, I'll have to rely on you and others here to elaborate.
Does Cole use this power in a cut-scene, to hit somebody who's moving faster than a speeding car?
If he simply uses it in-game, that could be explained as game mechanics, just like any other "auto-aim" mechanic in various games.Each power is stated in dialogue/cut scenes to function the same way they do in-game. Precision can be used to take down unmanned drones in the air during two missions. Also, I myself managed to nail a couple of henchman when they were on top of a train at full speed. It's a power that sure lives up to it's name. In addition, the evil ending of inFAMOUS 2 has Cole using a blast that's not even precision to take down a jet going at full speed. We are talking about lightning. If you take a look at this video, you can see that there are several strands of his biomass already moving, one of them latches on to the crow, and the rest as they say, is history.
This shows that it is not hit and miss, regardless of how you would like it to be so.
Ah, yes. It had been a while since I had seen it. Forgot how gruesome it was  As for the hit and miss comment, I meant that it would be very circumstantial as to how it would affect a creature, depending on the creature's size. For example, if the remains latched onto Cole's boot it's unlikely it would be able to affect him before he blasted it. And I never said anything about Alex consuming Cole, I said infect something rather different.
This is shown in Prototype 2, where Alex has infected several different people, gaining a measure of control over them, without consuming them.Considering that the only thing it would take, would be a single hit, unless Cole is capable of completely avoiding being struck, chances are he'll get infected.
My apologies. I assumed you meant consuming. As for infecting, I am not so sure. The source of Cole's powers, along with any powers in inFAMOUS, is a gene called the Conduit gene. It is presumably the next stage in evolution and is triggered by certain kinds of radiation. Knowing how unstable the gene is, I honestly have no clue how it would interact with Blacklight (whether they would cancel each other out, or one overriding the other). |
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Post by kainboa on Oct 2, 2013 11:21:56 GMT
As for the hit and miss comment, I meant that it would be very circumstantial as to how it would affect a creature, depending on the creature's size.
And you would be wrong, it doesn't matter which size creature the biomass latches on to is, the only thing that chances is how long it would take to consume said creature.
This is of course if the creature is a normal creature, human, animal etc, rather than something that is capable of fighting off a sentient viral infection.
My apologies. I assumed you meant consuming. As for infecting, I am not so sure. The source of Cole's powers, along with any powers in inFAMOUS, is a gene called the Conduit gene. It is presumably the next stage in evolution and is triggered by certain kinds of radiation. Knowing how unstable the gene is, I honestly have no clue how it would interact with Blacklight (whether they would cancel each other out, or one overriding the other).
The stability of the gene, is pretty much irrelevant, unless it is capable of actively combating a sentient viral infection, there's fuck-all it can do to prevent Cole from getting infected.
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Post by Indolent on Oct 2, 2013 13:25:36 GMT
Well, Mercer's been shown to be able to assimilate Hunters pretty quickly, and they're pretty goddamn big, easily at least three times larger than Arnie.
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supes
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Post by supes on Oct 2, 2013 18:30:55 GMT
Not knowing how Blacklight would react to the Conduit gene, I'll not make any assumptions. But it could work, based on the effects it's displayed when Alex infects/consumes hunters or people.
So we now have a way Alex can win besides slashing or smashing Cole. If he plays it smart and if Blacklight is capable if fully infecting or consuming Cole.
Based on our discussion I'd say...
Cole wins about 55% out of all outcomes
Alex wins about 45%
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Post by kainboa on Oct 2, 2013 19:40:46 GMT
Not knowing how Blacklight would react to the Conduit gene, I'll not make any assumptions. But it could work, based on the effects it's displayed when Alex infects/consumes hunters or people.
It's rather simple, and no need to make any assumptions, just one question.
Does the Conduit gene, give any particular protection against viral infection, if yes, then how effective is it.
If no, then there's no evidence to suggest that it would give any kind of protection against being infected/consumed.
Based on our discussion I'd say...
Cole wins about 55% out of all outcomes
Alex wins about 45%
Based on what you've said thus far, I'd give it to Alex somewhere between 70-90%
Since, as shown in the video, unless Alex is completely destroyed, down to every single piece of stray bio-mass that he's been using to grab various objects, He'll return.
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Post by g4hardcore on Dec 26, 2013 0:15:18 GMT
Alex moves way faster than Cole. Whatever distance is between them, Alex can jump or run at Cole faster than Cole can run away. Plus, Alex has full body armor and a giant arm shield to protect himself until he can close the distance.
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Post by supes on Dec 27, 2013 1:30:42 GMT
Alex moves way faster than Cole. Whatever distance is between them, Alex can jump or run at Cole faster than Cole can run away. Plus, Alex has full body armor and a giant arm shield to protect himself until he can close the distance. Don't count Cole's speed out quite yet. Although he can't keep up with Alex in terms of physical speed, the firebird strike is like a short distance flight/teleportation for Cole that he could repeat many times. Also taking into account the induction grind that Cole does on wires he could make a getaway after stunning Alex. But yes, physically Alex possesses more overall speed. But he's not faster than lightning. Cole's precision ability slows down time for him anyway, so he would be able to target Alex and hit him from quite a distance with Alex unable to dodge. As for the armor and shield, I point you to these two guys.  Not only are they massive, but I'm pretty sure their 'armor' is thicker than Alex's. And for added perspective Cole is able to kill the devourer (creature on the left) with just two ionic storms. Imagine what just one would do to Alex. |
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Post by Indolent on Dec 27, 2013 6:55:05 GMT
You have to realize Alex Mercer's mass is incredibly dense so I'm not sure if comparing that brute to Mercer actually works.
That aside - as Kain's said in respect to Mercer's survivability, unless an Ionic Storm obliterates every piece of Mercer, he's going to survive, which is something of an advantage over the Devourer, no?
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Post by supes on Dec 27, 2013 21:19:12 GMT
You have to realize Alex Mercer's mass is incredibly dense so I'm not sure if comparing that brute to Mercer actually works. That aside - as Kain's said in respect to Mercer's survivability, unless an Ionic Storm obliterates every piece of Mercer, he's going to survive, which is something of an advantage over the Devourer, no? I am well aware of how dense Alex is. I was making a comparison between his armor and the Devourer's. Alex has been hurt by grenades and artillery even if he is wearing armor. While the Devourer's armor and it's sheer size deflects most projectiles including all but Cole's strongest powers. I would say that it is stronger overall. And if an ionic storm damages a Devourer severely, than it would really make life difficult for Alex. And I know that truly killing Alex is nearly impossible. Hell, the fact that his gooey remains were able to consume that crow after he was nuked was pretty impressive. But my closing arguments included the statement that you don't have to kill somebody to beat them. And Cole could defeat Alex if he used his powers correctly, like if he blasted Alex to pieces/ashes with his lightning or fire powers he could freeze what was left of Alex. Whether or not Alex later returned from all of that, Cole will have won the fight. |
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As for the hit and miss comment, I meant that it would be very circumstantial as to how it would affect a creature, depending on the creature's size. For example, if the remains latched onto Cole's boot it's unlikely it would be able to affect him before he blasted it.